A.J. Sass is the author of Ana on the Edge, a contributor to the anthologies This Is Our Rainbow and Allies, and co-author of the upcoming anthology Camp QUILTBAG. In Sass’s second middle grade novel, Ellen Outside the Lines, Ellen Katz, an autistic Jewish girl, wrestles with changing schedules and shifting friendships on a class trip to Barcelona. Ellen has always known she likes other girls, and after her new nonbinary classmate Isa changes her perspectives on gender, Ellen finds herself exploring her own identity. Through new relationships and challenges, she finds confidence in an unfamiliar place. We spoke with Sass about representation for a middle grade audience, his dedication to figure skating, and working with a co-author on his next project.

After your debut novel, Ana on the Edge, when did you first have the idea for Ellen Outside the Lines, and how did that develop?

In 2018 I took an online middle grade writing class; I’d never written for that age group before. We had a homework assignment to come up with three ideas and pitch them. One was Ana, and one was a more vague idea set in Barcelona with a kid questioning their gender identity, so they really came about at the same time. I developed Ana first, and when it was acquired, [my editor] asked about any other ideas I had, and I wanted to develop something about a study abroad trip with a neurodivergent character.

Did what you learned from the process with Ana on the Edge affect your writing process for Ellen?

With Ana I was underwriting. I think 60 more pages came out of revision, whereas with Ellen I overwrote by 70 pages and ended up pulling back to find the heart of the story. The processes were very different and I learned that you have to accept that every book is different.

Ellen is Jewish, autistic, and lesbian, and Isa is nonbinary—how did you approach portraying these identities for a younger readership, both those who have these experiences and those who don’t?

With respect to Ellen being queer, I left it pretty open. At that age, when I was a kid, we didn’t really have the vocabulary—I left it open for Ana on the Edge and wanted to do the same for Ellen even though Ellen wasn’t as tightly focused on identity. I didn’t mention what labels Ellen wants to use for herself except that by the end she wants to use she/they pronouns. Related to neurodiversity I wanted to give the opposite. I wanted to give Ellen the vocabulary, so I made the decision to give her a diagnosis, a therapist, and support from her family. Then when she had [sensory overload] she could know what was going on, and it could be relatable for autistic readers and more accessible for non-autistic readers.

How did you specifically approach Ellen’s overwhelm—something that might be scary for younger readers?

When writing Ellen experiencing overwhelm, I broke up the text and it got very staccato. Ellen is not even aware of who she’s speaking to when normally she’d have no difficulties. I was hoping a younger readership would understand that stress. And I made sure to follow that up with Ellen’s support system, making sure that people around her are able to support her and get her to somewhere she can use techniques the therapist has taught her to find her calm again.

How do you feel this intersectional representation is important for this audience?

It mirrors the world we’re growing up in. When I was growing up mostly in small towns in the Midwest, it was more homogeneous, but that doesn’t reflect most people’s situations anymore. You can have a story about coming out but that’s not the only thing the character is focused on—there are other aspects of their life. This is more about the evolution and dissolution of friendships, and I wanted to make sure it reflects the world kids are seeing right now. Rather than just having one classmate who’s queer, one who’s autistic, there is no one size fits all. People can be more than one thing, and it affects the way you see the world. Hopefully more books get written with different intersectional identities, because it opens the world to kids being able to see beyond their own perspective.

The scavenger hunt is a big component of Ellen’s trip—how did you come up with the riddles featured throughout the book?

Those came really late in the process. They weren’t in the original sample chapters, but it became hard to write the story without immediacy or some kind of ticking clock or deadline—it turned into passive field trips and lectures without the characters having much agency. Once I figured out there needed to be some sort of contest, it wasn’t until the book sold that I realized I needed to make riddles. I’ve been to Barcelona seven times and chose solutions based on my own experiences there—what struck me as unique about the city or opened my eyes. I was hoping to reflect that with Ellen and her teammates as well. On my first trip I went to the solution of the first clue, and I wanted to relive those experiences through the eyes of someone much younger.

What first drew you to middle grade fiction?

I initially thought when I got published it would be YA, partly under the assumption I wouldn’t be able to write a queer or autistic perspective in the middle grade space. I was fortunate that friends pointed me toward books like Starcrossed by Barbara Dee and Melissa (not sure if this was checked already but looks like yes) by Alex Gino—it opened my eyes to the fact that you can write queer stories for this age category. Going back to when I was 12 or 13, there was so much going on, so many emotions, and trying to fit into friend groups and family. It’s a really interesting age category because there’s a lot going on with trying to explore and figure out who you are and I like the component that it’s very internal. You have to make it a reading experience for a wide demographic; there might be adults reading, or younger kids, or high schoolers reading down a level. I just like that middle grade usually ends on a note of hope. Maybe the characters don’t have everything figured out but at least it’s a happy ending—not a Disney ending but a hopeful one. Kids sort of need that in their lives, the message that sometimes life is messy but you can still move forward.

Your tagline on your website is “figure skating fiction writer.” Can you talk a bit about your passion for skating?

I started skating at seven. My parents put me into it because we moved frequently and it was hard for me to settle down and settle into friendships, and wherever we moved there was an ice rink within driving distance. It became a constant for me. The other constant was writing; I journaled a lot, which I think carried through to fiction writing. Skating has been part of my life for about three decades. It was initially traditional training and competing but carried through to college and I’ve done a lot of different disciplines. For me it’s similar to the writing process—you sometimes wake up and don’t want to go but you know that you need to whether you want to or not. Consistency is important, like when you’re on a deadline or have a story living inside you that you need to get out. The routine is really helpful. Skating changes as you get older. My muscles don’t twitch for the jumps like they used to, so I’ve expanded my role in the sport. I’m now also a judge—still part of the sport but in a different capacity. It lets me stay in the sport while keeping my kneecaps intact! It really parallels writing for me; it’s been there for me across multiple moves, state lines, and life changes.

For your next project, Camp QUILTBAG, you’ve worked with another author. What was it like to collaborate?

It was so much fun! Well, it still is, we’re waiting for edits. To have someone fully invested as much as you are in the characters and story has been joyful and unique. My co-author, Nicole Melleby, writes wonderful heartfelt authentic middle grade stories and we both complement each other; we have different perspectives. This is a dual perspective story and our characters both come from This Is Our Rainbow—we brainstormed on “how can we get these two characters together and tell a story about them?” and came up with a queer youth camp for the location. We sold it on proposal with sample chapters and followed an outline. We ping-ponged back and forth on the perspective and gave each other feedback. It was a really fun experience! We wrote the first draft last summer, taking turns each week, and kept in close contact. I’m really looking forward to seeing how it goes.

What do you hope readers take from Ellen’s story?

At Ellen’s age, being autistic, routine was such a comfort for me. I don’t know if all autistic people feel this way. The fact that Ellen voluntarily went on a trip that she thought was regimented but ended up not—my hope is twofold, that kids get that friendships change and end and that’s okay, it’s not that anyone did something wrong, and that itineraries and plans change and that might be stressful but it’s a part of life. Change is essential to one’s growth as a person.

Ellen Outside the Lines by A.J. Sass. Little, Brown, $16.99 Mar. 22 ISBN 978-0-7595-5627-0